Where Bitcoin fails as censorship resistant digital cash, Monero thrives w/ Ragnar Lifthrasir | EPI #293

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tip this week on Monero talk Douglas

tuman intrview Ragnar LIF rier an OG

bitcoiner who has increasingly become a

staunch supporter of Monero in light of

bitcoin's lack of privacy and

fungibility he is launching a new

conference this upcoming year called the

finny Forum which focuses on bitcoin

privacy Tech and Monero together they

discuss how Ragnar realized through the

gun Community some of the flaws of

Bitcoin that Monera could fix what will

happen to bitcoin if the state seizes

control what effect would a ban on

Monero have and could it take Monero

adoption to the next level the drama in

the Bitcoin community in contrast to the

Monero community's cohesion doubts about

Bitcoin censorship resistance in regards

to Ocean mining censoring Samurai wallet

and ordinals and much more Monero Talk

starts

[Music]

now all right Ragnar what's going on man

hey how are you thanks for having me on

the show I gotta say I love the name I

love I love I love the name that's uh a

beautiful name are are you named after

somebody in your family is that uh well

I do I do have Scandinavian Heritage but

mostly what I get is people ask me if

I've seen the show the

Vikings uh that's the most common

response but uh yeah it works H how much

of your heritage is it is it is it like

a large portion of your background or

yeah I mean you know it's all northern

European you know people who don't know

too much about like the history of

Europe I mean it's basically the

northern Germanic tribes so pretty much

anything in Germany Scandinavia know a

lot parts of the UK it's all kind of the

same people right just kind of formerly

violent people um who also some of them

have a brain uh so that's basically yeah

my

Heritage might you might have some

Neanderthal mix in there you never know

I think I got some Neanderthal oh yeah

no absolutely I mean the highest

concentration of Neanderthal DNA is I

think Northern Europeans or least

obviously Europeans and I certainly act

that way sometimes so yeah

who who are the Neanderthals in crypto

is it is it is it the bitcoiners is the

is it the moneros people oh boy that's a

good question well let's see you know uh

we killed the Neanderthals they went out

of they were extinct what 30,000 years

ago which isn't that long and you know a

thought experiment is I always think

what if they were still around yeah you

know like what would the world be like I

think that's an interesting question so

applying that to like Bitcoin mon I

don't know uh but it's a cool thought

experiment yeah and we don't really know

what they were like obviously right like

we you know for all we know they they

were the I don't know the the more

ethical spiritual uh tribes right we we

don't we don't even we don't really know

what the what the dynamic was but but

that that that's a whole whole another

whole another thread right there yeah um

listen man uh I never had you on I I

gotta be honest I don't know a lot about

you uh so I think this is going to be a

good conversation and if you don't mind

can we kind of start from the basics

because I really don't I really don't

know much um I know you got a large you

have a large following on Twitter uh I

think you're you're an OG bitcoiner but

not not to uh not to push pull uh

strings here but I I have been blocked

by you for quite some time so because of

that I honestly I've been cut off from

that whole realm of of the Twitter space

the uh kind of the the samurai

Ragnar realm so which I think is going

to make for for a good interview because

we'll be talking about a lot of this

will be the first for me so who is

Ragnar what is your what is your crypto

story sure well in terms of Twitter you

know that's just typical you stay in

Bitcoin Monero long enough you're going

to get blocked be blocked sometimes you

deserve it sometimes you don't I've been

on both sides of that equation but you

know over over time I think we we

learned that generally people were on

the same side generally we want the same

goals you and I I'm sure so sometimes

you go about it differently or there's a

miscommunication or just sometimes

people are having a bad day so in terms

of like me yeah I got into Bitcoin uh

2011 and since then gosh I've done a

whole bunch of different things in

Bitcoin uh two different startups my

first Bitcoin startup was 201 no

actually 2013 was my first Bitcoin start

up okay um didn't really go anywhere but

it was an escrow service that was also

kind of uh eBay type of thing and the

idea was to use um Bitcoin escrow and

then have a little Marketplace we sold a

few things but it quickly didn't go very

far we were a little too early what was

that called um it was called

anarch oh cool man anarch yeah yeah it

like it was a peer-to-peer Bitcoin

Market Marketplace yeah yeah like you

could list stuff I think someone sold an

old Apple computer um I think some hats

just kind of random knickknacks and what

was interesting about that is we didn't

use multisig for the escrow we used um a

split private Keys which nowadays you

would never do that but at the time we

thought we were smart so that's how we

did it and there's a video out there

somewhere of an LA Bitcoin Meetup where

I I pitch anarch uh for five minutes

I'll have to search the archives and

find that so that was yeah I think 2013

2016 I had a startup for real estate and

I used Bitcoin colored coins to

represent the ownership of uh property

real estate and did that yeah did that

with a um with Cook County in Chicago

which is the second largest county in

the US we legally transfer a piece of

property on the Bitcoin blockchain but

again we were way too early that didn't

go go anywhere um and then in between

just doing different Bitcoin stuff put

on the conferences guns and Bitcoin as

you know barms and Bitcoin and this year

we're doing finy Forum actually 2024

finny forum and we're happy to have you

know the podcast as a partner you know

at finny Forum so thank you very much

for showing the support and looking

forward to actually meeting you in

person yeah thank you for inviting us as

well we're we're excited about that

looks like you got a good group coming

together for that yeah it's it's a

diverse group you know we've got some

Monero folks like you and some others we

got some Bitcoin people privacy people

um cyber security people so it's March

15th 16th in Dallas websites F form.com

but we just announced today that our um

keynote speaker is actually Tor eand so

if you know Tor eand he is the attorney

yeah who's who's defending you know

Roman in the Bitcoin fog case so yeah I

think uh I think we were one of the

first to to interview him we had him on

Monero talk back in the day and then

yeah they ended up being a speaker at at

Monero Topia in Mexico City um and

they're doing big things as you know um

it's I think think it's very important

what they're working on I haven't really

been I don't really know where they're

currently at with that um do do you know

where that that's currently at that um

what I do know is I think they have a

court date in March and T said they

think they're going to be done you know

in time for the conference he said

there's a chance it goes longer than he

can't make it if he's in court obviously

but I think it's

March um so I think that's where it

stands you know Justice moves slow or

Injustice moves slow so we'll see how

that that turn turned out I I could be

wrong but I thought that the Court ruled

that chainalysis you know which is the

company that's working for the federal

government did that you know quote

unquote research um that they basically

said that their algorithm couldn't be

sort of examined in detail they

basically said no we can't allow that

which seems like a violation of the

Constitution to be able to face your

accuser and and have the evidence

against you but supposedly that's the

last I heard so the whole the whole

thing is just dirty so we're really you

know yeah it's quite interesting it's

it's like chain analysis is what's on

trial right um yeah it's it's one of the

things that may come out of this how how

chain analysis is then viewed in court

viewed in court in future cases actually

Artic mine from the Monero Monero

Community he he was working on that case

as well I think he's one of their expert

Witnesses um so so continuing though

with with the story so all right so you

got it you got it to bitcoin ear

obviously if you're if you're working on

these startups back in 2015

2014 approximately when did you like get

into get get into Bitcoin and was it um

you know what was the story there was it

one of these you know I read the Satoshi

white paper and I realized they solved

the Byzantine generals problem and I was

all in like what what was your kind of

your eure moment with Bitcoin yeah for

me it was actually Reddit of all places

uh Reddit on a political philosophical

form that I came across it and um that's

how I found it and then just kind of

looked into it um got my first wall my

first Bitcoins were actually from a

faucet uh you know back in the day they

had these faucets where you do certain

things and you get these you know small

amounts of Bitcoin and I think my first

purchase using Bitcoin was I think

2013 from Roger Veer store I don't know

if you remember you know he had a store

called memory dealers and Roger verer

sold like electronics and computer

cables and all sorts of stuff so my

first purchase with Bitcoin was a USB

cable and uh at flash drive that's what

it was and I bought that uh my first um

purchase with Bitcoin and that was my

Eureka moment I would say um to answer

your question because I remember when I

sent the Bitcoin it was amazing I just

you know you put in the address and the

amount there wasn't like credit card

number and address and phone and email

and all this kind of crazy stuff and

just kind of the light bulb went off

like hey this is this is money that

doesn't have an identity with you know

no intermediary I know it's a cliche but

that's that's really what it was I was

sending money directly to Roger's Store

no one was in between us so that was

like the the Eureka moment for

me now interesting because that that's

kind of like when I first started

thinking about I mean Monero I

guess existed but I didn't really know

much about it it was when I first

started using Bitcoin and then going to

check on the Block chain right to go

check a block Explorer to see if a

transaction went through and as I was

doing that I was thinking wait a minute

this isn't really as Anonymous as I

thought it was did you did you also have

that realization obviously you had it at

some point but did you have that uh

early on as well I think it's a process

I mean I I knew I never thought that it

was completely Anonymous you know a lot

of people did right with with like the

Silk Road a lot of people using that

thinking it was Anonymous that's how

they got got in trouble um so I always

knew it wasn't completely Anonymous but

I didn't know like the intricate details

of exactly why that that was and how you

can be tracked I just knew it wasn't

quite Anonymous um but over time you

learn that you learn the inner details

right um there's a great book I don't

know if you've read it um by Andy

Greenberg where he talks about you know

all these dark you know drug markets and

a couple other ones and how they were

taken down and it's interesting that yes

like Bitcoins you know lack of

fungibility and and things like that

contributed to to tracing things for

sure but how a lot of these guys got

caught actually had nothing to do with

Bitcoin it was like using an email

address that they used somewhere else it

was linking it to like some other social

media identity so thought that was

interesting yeah yeah yeah um yeah we we

tried getting him on the show because he

he made some interesting statements

about Monero in there in that well um so

then what was your turning point where

you started to get interested in moneros

like did at what point were you did it

become a problem for you in Bitcoin

where you're like wait a minute it's not

only pseudo Anonymous but it actually is

perhaps more deeply

flawed I don't have his exact date but I

think it was just you know I remember

when Monero came out I thought it was

really interesting but I was you know

deep in Bitcoin and I you know I was

always very Pro Bitcoin and kind of anti

everything else um I don't think I ever

called myself a maxi maybe I did but I

never just thought anything was good and

it wasn't because like it was a

self-righteous religious thing I just

thought objectively everything is mostly

crap and so Monero came out I thought it

was cool but I just didn't have the time

to like want to look into it and I

thought maybe this will just go away

like zcash and we there there's been

other quote unquote privacy coins and I

just thought no this is just another one

it's never going to get adoption um um

but when did I actually start using

Monero and really take a deep dive I

think it was a um several years ago when

I started to kind of get involved and

understand uh more what gun owners face

and the 3D gun printing Community what

they face their financial

discrimination uh despite having

constitutional rights um and and seeing

kind of some of the problems they faced

and I think it was someone in that

Community they ultimately said hey

Ragnar like really take a look at this

and that's when I did and so um yeah I

think the only time I I haven't used

Bitcoin was Monero was I think my first

non-bitcoin coin that I've I've ever

used after Bitcoin I think and then

Stacks I've used a little bit because

they have some cool smart Contracting

stuff but that's it I never never used

any other coin besides that so it was

the it was the gun stuff that really

kind of open your eyes to it what what

what were the detail what was going on

there it was like explain that a little

a little bit more yeah well it's just

kind of General stuff I mean basic

things like PayPal and a lot of these uh

type of companies simply won't allow

legal you know businesses to conduct

business you know basic things even

selling like you know Parts they're not

guns they're not anything like that

they're just parts and so I saw that

happening and so you know these these

people you know were using Bitcoin again

they're not selling guns right they're

just like parts and t-shirts and

stickers and and whatever might be so

not guns they weren't selling guns you

can't do that um but just seeing that

they're their problem with Bitcoin and

then they said well I might as well use

Monero if I'm gonna be have to go all in

on crypto so it was sort of like those

guys who were really into that world was

also the digital world because I don't

know how much you know you're into like

the gun culture but there's kind of like

a tiny overlap between gun owners gun

people and like Bitcoin cryp crypto

people it's kind of strange you would

think there' be a big overlap but

there's not yeah yeah yeah you think

there'd be a larger overlap right is

what you're saying yeah yeah there's not

I mean that it's they're both tools for

fighting tyranny that that's for sure

um yes so that I guess that's how the

guns and Bitcoin thing then came about

right obviously that was yeah sort of so

guns and Bitcoin started out as just

sort of like this attitude that I had

which is just kind of a personal

philosophy where I thought you know you

have to protect the physical world and

the G digital world and you know guns

and Bitcoin help you with both of those

so it it's more just like a Twitter

account I started just to kind of share

random thoughts about that and then okay

turned and turned into like yeah let

still sell some T-shirts and hey let's

put on a conference because I started to

meet other once I started the Twitter

account you know I met some other people

who kind of thought like I did and in

the middle of covid 2020 we launched our

our first conference which was

interesting we were going to have in

Portland and Co they wouldn't allow us

to do it so we had to move it to Texas

and then yeah that's how it got started

in middle of

Co awesome yeah then you had it in uh in

Miami right you had you had your I guess

that was the second one in Miami so is

guns in Bitcoin is that done or are you

still doing or has it has it turned into

finny form uh it's kind of on the back

burner um I guess you could say it's

turned into finny form in the sense that

I wanted to focus more on Monero and

cyber security and I thought to do that

I should just kind of launch a new

conference that is more consistent with

that and just focus on cryptocurrency

and cyber security as well I wanted to

add that and actually even we're gonna

have one or two ordinal speakers which

sounds incongruent it doesn't sound like

it would fit um but actually ordinals

really offers you a way to exercise free

speech and publish things that are

uncensorable so to me it's not about

like the monkey jpegs and the Ugly art I

think most most of that is Superfluous I

don't like almost any of it but there's

some really cool things you can do with

ordinals in terms of publishing um you

know PDFs but even audio video uh you

could actually publish websites believe

it or not you could publish websites as

ordinal

inscriptions

yeah no I yeah no I that totally makes

sense to me right that's essentially

that's it's it's free spee right we say

it's free speech money right money money

is speech but then this is just another

obviously form of it um using this

protocol to essentially say things out

there in the without being censored and

in a way where it can never be erased

you know it's it can it will last

forever uh in theory um so I'm right

there with you so give us some deeper

insight into that then in terms of what

your overall kind of viewpoint of what

Bitcoin is or or what you see as the

true value proposition to crypto or do

you see it as having multiple value

propositions obviously you're interested

in the you know the digital cash use

case like we're talking about people

should be able to have a tool where if

they want to buy gun parts they could do

it without without surveillance or

censorship uh but now you're talking

about just this this concept of of being

able to publish things freely so what do

you see as the value proposition or

propositions of cryptocurrency yeah um

well I think I see it in terms of like

three areas I think I think of Bitcoin I

think of Monero and then I think of like

stacks and I think they all kind of have

their their Niche so starting with

Bitcoin I see that primarily as a

publishing

space um as sort of a you know

publishing ordinals or or even

transactions um and obviously as as

money but I don't think that's what

Bitcoin does best I think what it does

best is store data that's what I think

as uh like property right like digital

property yeah is that that that you

agree with that yeah I agree with you

it's it's like digital property and one

of the earliest I think uh I ideas

people came up with this Bitcoin is like

real estate that block space is so

valuable um because of what you could

put in there so because of the security

and everything else I think bitcoin's

biggest strength is is that block space

it's uncensorable block space I don't

think it's the best peer-to-peer money

obviously I use it as that but I don't

think it that's what it's best and

that's where Monero comes in which I

think is the best peer-to-peer digital

money and then Stacks is good for smart

contracts and some some scaling stuff

for Bitcoin smart contracts so it's like

I guess you to sum it up it's three

things I'd say it's like free speech

private money and then kind of you know

uh decentralize smart contracts and

quote unquote

defi okay okay um yeah I'd say I'm

pretty much right there with you

obviously I think the digital cash use

case is the most

compelling um or maybe the

the the one that's the one that I think

will will gain will provides the most

utility um the digital digital property

for Bitcoin uh you use the word

censorship uh resistance to censorship

but but is it resistance to censorship

um I think maybe what what Bitcoin does

right if we we're treating it like

digital property maybe maybe really what

it offers is uh this ability to always

prove that you have title right and

really kind of in a very public way and

it's stored on this it's stored on this

blockchain for all to see like this is

my property now we we're trying to aisc

it because we want to use this

blockchain for for making digital cash

transactions but it seems like its

nature is more transparent and if that

is the

case does that work against its ability

to be censorship resistant do you think

it is censorship

resistant uh a censorship resistant

Network I think I think it's it's not

binary right I think it's all in a scale

of what censorship resistant and you

know moner obviously falls on that um

Spectrum as well but to answer your

question I think it is pretty censorship

resistant I think it's the fungibility

and privacy is hard but not impossible

you know today we had that Twitter space

I thought I saw you were on there which

you know thanks for for joining that um

so yeah so using like like Whirlpool

with Samurai and then and then also like

Sparrow wallet that obviously really

helps to get a lot better privacy uh for

for Bitcoin so you definitely can get

privacy on bitcoin it's just harder it's

extra steps it costs more because you

got to you know you got to do certain

things uh and there's other issues but

yeah I mean Bitcoin is the most uh has

the most liquidity the most users the

most you know Merchants accepted and so

there's no reason to say I against

Bitcoin like you just have to take extra

steps and so for me Bitcoin and Monero

go together peanut butter and jelly

right I yeah yeah yeah I'm not saying

I'm just trying to figure out you know

uh like actual use cases and if Bitcoin

is uh are if it if it is built to be

truly censorship resistant right um

we're seeing we're seeing kinks in the

armor right right now right we saw you

know now you have um right ocean ocean

is is censoring is censoring Samurai

Whirlpool transactions not obviously

their intent is to censor these BRC 20

tokens or right the basically they want

to censor the the nfts on

bitcoin but what they're but they're

also censoring other types of

transactions one of them being Samurai

uh world pool transactions which are are

there to add add fungibility and privacy

but just the fact that they can do that

is that showing that Bitcoin is is

failing as a censorship resistant

Network and then there's other examples

too we saw uh miners that have attempted

to be ofac compliant we saw that

recently we saw that happen again and

now we have I think over 50% of all

mining pools are kyc

miners do you see kinks in the Army

there in regards to bitcoin's censorship

resistant oh yeah yeah I mean I mean

it's it's OB effectively has issues with

with the mining right I mean you have to

have a lot of money and a lot of

technical knowledge to really mine

Bitcoin you could do it home mining

still works but uh realistically it's

kind of dominated by kind of people with

a lot more capital and full-time

expertise and like you said you know the

big miners they're often publicly traded

companies they're required to do kyc AML

they're required to do all that and so

crazy it's it's just the reality now

people can point their hash power

elsewhere if they don't like the pull

they're in and so far you know when

they're having attempts to censor like

there was like I think a year ago that

ofac pool they didn't get very far they

stopped doing that uh ocean I think

they're they're but now there was

another there was another recent ofat

what was the pool that recently did I

think it like F2 pool I think is who did

that so it's always lurking there right

it's like there's always that

possibility that these miners can censor

that seems to be the trend I don't know

if you do you know urri

bedar um are you familiar with him URI

uh sounds familiar but Parnelli Parnelli

polus he's one yeah yeah he he wrote I

mean year it's been years ago now but he

kind of laid it all out there um the

trajectory of of of

what censorship resistance might look

like in Bitcoin given the fact that uh

miners can can be co-opted by

governments through regulation and

basically be forced to start doing doing

what they say in terms of uh how they

the transactions that they're allowed to

verify um do you think these little

things we're seeing are just the

beginning of what will ultimately be the

end and that man like Bitcoin can

effectively be co-opted by

governments uh and miners can be forced

to to be OAC compliant or do you think

it just something that we're seeing bits

and pieces of but they're never going to

be able to get get a grapple over

Bitcoin yeah that's a good question I I

I if I had to predict and put money on

it I don't think that the state is

really going to be able to really

prevent Bitcoin through miners I think

they're going to keep adding more

pressure and I think you will see more

the larger mining companies start to

like pre comply with things actually

kind of don't need to maybe or or

ultimately you know with Elizabeth

Warren Senator Warren you know she's

she's just like doing everything she can

to kill Bitcoin everything crypto

everything so do I think they're going

to keep going after it yes I don't think

the mining will ultimately stop Bitcoin

just simply because people could Point

their hashing elsewhere you know it's

not hard to like in China right like

China kind of outlawed Bitcoin and the

miners went to the US and the miners

could go other places um but it it it is

a reality that they can kind of make a

dent in it but I think they have other

means to do that um yeah in a scenario

where 95% of all miners are part of one

of these large companies that are

essentially in bed with The

Regulators uh where where do you go to

get your transaction validated if if all

the mining is effectively being done by

these large

corporations that are now doing ofac

compliant Mining and they don't mind

doing it because they benefit Ben from

working with The Regulators right and

keeping outside and having essentially

an advantage over over other miners that

aren't ined with The Regulators how does

that scenario not come to pass yeah

we'll see I mean like you said um

they've done that but then they stopped

I think it was what a year or two ago

now Michael sailor he was um uh

associated with one of these and they

did it for I think maybe a couple weeks

I mean but they stopped and if pull did

it once so I just think based on what

they've done so far it hasn't been an

issue doesn't mean it won't be but it's

something to kind of keep an eye on

again people could Point their hash

power elsewhere it could you know it

could move but it's something to keep an

eye on

absolutely um you know it's an attack

Vector it's it's to me not their best

way of going after Bitcoin or any crypto

but they're going to look into that um I

mean look at they're trying to say that

a non-custodial wallet is illegal right

I mean it doesn't matter who you are

Monero Bitcoin like you can't even like

hold your own crypto that's that's what

I think Elizabeth Warren's bill is is

trying to do I think or something like

that that's c yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean

she she and she is totally Dead Set

against privacy coins and like that

whole concept like she sees that as like

literally you know the devil right which

is ironic considering she she is the

devil I mean she she does not make any

sense right if you go back and look at

how she started as a political figure

and what she was supposed to stand for

and here she is fighting against Liberty

Freedom Tech right that that's that's

built to disrupt the Fiat system and

built to disrupt the banking system uh

and and it's built to create a a

beautiful permissionless system that

anybody can use and she's managed

to politically somehow be on the other

side on the wrong side of that one like

in in such such a passionate way too do

you think she's ultimately like you know

controlled controlled by the bankers or

something is it is it just

a she has that incentive to do what she

does you know and and why why do

politicians do what they do it's either

money or power usually both so I guess

for her that's her way I mean it's kind

of surprising that I mean she lied about

her ethnicity she said she was Native

American and so you would think she

would be cancelled I mean that's a

pretty shameful thing to do lie about

your ethnicity but I mean I guess if you

make the right people happy then you can

get away with with everything but you

know it's interesting you brought up

about um like privacy coins so she

doesn't doesn't like those and so it's

interesting what happens if they try to

completely ban using any privacy coin

Monero zcast like effective will that be

and you know what's interesting

how does that compare to bitcoin because

let's think of a scenario where they say

okay we're fine with Bitcoin we won't

like make it illegal just the usual kyc

stuff yeah what if they say Monero any

privacy coin is if you use it like it's

a fence you get six months in prison

like I wonder if they're going to try to

do that and then at that point do you

say well which is more censorship

resistant well narrow at the protocol

level but then functionally is it I

don't know we'll see we'll see yeah yeah

it's it's all interesting game what's

interesting about that too is it's

definitely going to create a strian

effect right we were talking about the

suon aatopia the other day and uh I I

totally agree with that theory I think

it's going to end up being what takes

Monero to the next level right um in

terms of user adoption and really at the

just name recognition right at the end

of the day all the these things are are

really memes right the more people that

know what Bitcoin is the more value it

has right it's like the US dollar itself

so I think if we see the government

actually Target Monero specifically you

know and it becomes something that

Senator Warren starts saying by name

right uh you're GNA get a lot of people

that are On The Fringe of Bitcoin

privacy move into Bitcoin privacy or

realize even more so the importance of

privacy in crypto I think right I think

I think that camp might grow in in

response to it we're already in that

camp right uh but you have a lot of

these like BTC Maxis and all these PE

and just crypto users in general who

haven't really stopped to think about

these things and if they see that

Senator Warren is trying to ban a

particular protocol I think it might get

them to question and start to go down

that rabbit hole do you think it it

could have that potential effect yeah I

think it could have that effect right

strien effect is a perfect example of

that yeah absolutely people say oh wow

what's this Monera I heard about it but

now they're banning it by name

specifically you know what interesting

is how much actually the state hasn't

gone after Monero or even even zcash

it's kind of interesting I think because

when you hear them talk it's always

about Bitcoin Bitcoin mixtures but then

also ethereum right like whirl um

tornado cash so they talk a lot about

that

but you would think they would really go

after Monero and I think there's a

reason why they don't talk about it now

some people might say well it's pretty

small the percentage like elicit uses as

they call it right like North Korea uh

Dark Net markets like most of them do

use Bitcoin um because of the liquidity

and so maybe it's just well not not not

enough crime quote unquote crime is

being used you know with Monero and

maybe that's why but it could be what

you said which is like kind of don't

want to bring that up yeah it's going to

end up hurting them more than helping

them there's there's really no way for

them to go after it out in the

open where they don't end up empowering

it more I I don't see how they can do it

um and it's also you you know it's it's

it's going to be a Supreme Court case at

that point right there's no there's no

way you ban Monero you ban an

open-source protocol you don't ow people

to use an open source system to transfer

digits over the internet without having

some Supreme Court case over it and at

that point it becomes well how do you

just how how do you justify

allowing citizens of the United of the

US to use Bitcoin but to not use Monera

what is what is the difference between

the two protocols at that point what is

the difference between the two

technologies well I think how they're

going after it is just saying any sort

of I think maybe I I should have read

Elizabeth Warren's bill before this but

um you know I think they're actually

going after kind of any open source

protocol anything that can in any way

enable people to have privacy I mean

they they're they're not like trying to

be subtle about it and so Monero just

falls into that Bitcoin everything else

and so I I agree with you it could go to

the Supreme Court you know could be 10

years before they find the right case

and who knows who's going to be on the

bench by then but yeah AB absolutely I

mean how can they do this well they're

they're doing it and today on Twitter I

saw this video it was from a conference

I think it was a it was a conference

basically with law enforcement talking

about the sanctions right and there were

someone from the FBI ofac and I think

the

treasury and they were talking about

these Bitcoin mixers and they did not

want to talk about tornado cash at

all there was it was like a really sore

spot and someone said oh you know

someone's like ah don't put me on the

spot for that one so I think they've

gotten so much push back from from

trying to ban tornado cash that they

they know that there's a line there it's

just strange because usually they're so

like confident they can you know they're

the state to have a lot of power it was

interesting that they didn't really want

to go into

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[Music]

Monero

so what do you think man you think it's

it's likely to happen you think we'll

see some kind of uh privacy coin

ban I think it's not I think a privacy

coin ban would just be part of a

larger bill that just says any sort of

opsource software and and that won

include coins it'll include mixers it'll

include you know anything you could

think of uh you know unhost wallets

self-hosted wallets I mean they're going

to they're going to name it all as a ban

as a ban you think that could be really

I think Elizabeth Warren's already

trying to do that but then including

Bitcoin no I think they won't ban

Bitcoin but what they'll say is you know

any sort of it's they wallets you can't

have your own wallet um they're already

saying that if you send or they're

trying to say that if you send someone

Bitcoin you have to basically kyc them

basically right right they're saying it

needs to be treated like the same as the

banking like it's unfair to the bankers

because they have to follow these

regulations so why doesn't the Bitcoin

Network have to follow it it's basically

what the is what the the argument that

they're making uh which is absurd crazy

yeah yeah but that you know crazy crazy

doesn't matter right logic doesn't

matter like justice Constitution none of

that matters so it's just a matter of

how do we still continue to try to do

what we can in extra exercise our rights

despite them being trampled so you know

it's going to be interesting I I think I

think Monero hasn't truly been tested

yet I think Bitcoin is being tested but

I don't think monero's quite been like

Enemy Number One maybe behind the scenes

it is I don't know you know but well

Bitcoin I mean bitcoin's never really

been it's it's always had the green

light right it was never you there's

never been an attempt by the government

to shut down Bitcoin as far as we know

unless there was something done behind

the scenes but there was China did right

China basically right right and it just

moved to the U right and it moved to the

US right so um I like to think or I

don't know do you think Monero is

potentially more Unstoppable than

Bitcoin right because that's what we're

getting at right so we're saying all

right there's there's a potential that

government's going to try to try toop

this thing and that's what the whole you

know Cypher Punk ideology crypto

Anarchist ideology is right it's like

well well them we don't care what

they're going to try to do we're trying

to build something that they can't stop

anyway do you think Monero is

potentially more Unstoppable than

Bitcoin because of its privacy uh its

fungibility um it's mining Network that

isn't Asic based and all all these other

things we're talking about that's a

great question so do you think Monero I

mean Bitcoin has the advantage because

of its transparency and because of that

it's almost embraced by governments to

the point where they'll never try to

like that's its strong point is that

governments it's Unstoppable because

governments aren't going to stop it

they're not going to try to stop it yeah

so to your to your point I think a

really good thought experiment has been

if Satoshi had you know released Monero

instead of Bitcoin or maybe Monero and

Bitcoin at the same time as a thought

experiment like what would have been the

trajectory and would let's say it was

Monero instead of Bitcoin that Satoshi

created like back in 2009 well would the

state have just crushed back then when

it was small and it could because it

truly was you know Anonymous and private

and and fungible would they have done

that and when Bitcoin came out where

they kind of like well it's really not

Anonymous so it's not a priority we can

still track people down we you know so

they weren't as worried so that's sort

of like the broad thought experiment and

a lot of people have said well Bitcoin

is less likely to be censored because

it's just transparent enough to where

people feel comfortable the state feels

comfortable being able to track it when

they need to um so they'll kind of allow

that now that is kind of held up until

recently now with mixers and tornado

cash these other Bitcoin mixers so we're

starting to see that tested we're

starting to see if they're going to say

okay before you are getting your Bitcoin

privacy through different coin joint

implementations uh so far they haven't

ruled against it like it's perfectly

legal to use whirlpool and you know

other things like that totally not a

problem but you can see why they would

kind of are looking at that now so we'll

see so that's that's Bitcoin in terms of

Monero um you know again I think it's

strange they haven't really like come

out and like put on like red alert about

Bitcoin so that either means that they

don't see it as a threat maybe because

liquidity like so few crimes are

actually with Monero or they kind of

purposely aren't and they're kind of

building things behind the scenes uh

most of the cyber crime again is Bitcoin

and then all the hacks are smart

contracts because ethereum is riddled

with holes right and so most of the

crime has been that so maybe if you see

something agrees with Monero some

terrible terrorism incident or right

something awful like that or north Korea

maybe then that's when you're going to

see it hit but it's kind of it's kind of

strange and when you read certain

reports and certain articles and PDFs on

you know um it's it is interesting that

that Monero really isn't isn't brought

up yeah it's pretty it's pretty pretty

wild um I have seen it though in like

Rand reports and

stuff um obviously it gets it does get

mentioned I mean they they they have

their eye on it for sure it's like it's

right I mean we had the IRS put out a

bounty to try to right to try to

demystify Monero um and the lightning

Network as well oh yeah um so much to

talk about I realized as I'm saying like

oh my God we got so many things to talk

about um yeah I mean I just want I just

want to pull in this thread a a little

more though so I I see thing you know I

see

Bitcoin a high probability that Bitcoin

isent gets defanged right I like I said

I think we're seeing hints of it now but

I think ultimately it becomes this

defanged Beast that is globally adopted

it almost becomes fzed right just like

just like uh gold right it's like people

aren't even buying gold anymore they're

buying paper gold right uh bit Bitcoin

almost becomes ftiz and that it exists

it's this network you can use it to to

to hold property on and transfer it but

it's all completely it becomes

effectively completely transparent and

in lock step with the government and the

Regulators in a way that ultimately

perhaps even benefits them right it

becomes this perfectly

taxable uh you know Ledger right Global

Ledger that governments can peer into

they know how much of this digital

property you have they could see you

when you're moving it um do you see that

are you as EXT Extreme as me in that

thinking or you have more hope for

Bitcoin I think I probably have a little

more hope uh for for

Bitcoin um simply looking at what

they're what they're doing I don't think

they'll ever completely you know like

ban everything although it seems like

some people are trying to do that um

what I'm looking at actually is I'm

really curious what happens

when someone publishes something as as

an ordinal you know maybe it's it's a

website that can't be taken down right

because cot is there I that's what I'm

keeping my eye out for because

eventually you know a really bad actor

is gonna put something really awful out

there that I think everyone disagrees

with hey this is not like we're privacy

Advocates but this is not okay and when

I think when that starts coming out

that's when I think things will get

interesting because now that's that's

not an issue of like k y see right

that's not an issue of sending funds to

we're going to you know we're going to

ban this address because it's a it's a

sanctioned person or entity now it's

just like a one-time thing like you

can't like once you create that

inscription like that's it you're not

trying to send it around usually for

that type of thing and so now that isn't

with mixers it's not with KC that that's

like more like a protocol level thing

and so that's when I think it could get

really interesting uh which I think is

sort of inevitable that's that's we'll

see that that to me will be the ultimate

test if they're going to go after truly

the

protocol yeah people people are going to

do that just for the for the hell of it

even if they're not inten like have

intent behind it uh just to test the the

network right and see what see what

reaction they will get out of

governments I'm surprised it hasn't

happened yet to be honest yeah I think

the reason why it hasn't I mean

obviously people have made ordinals of

all sorts of you know pornographic stuff

and other things and I think generally

why hasn't been an issue is because you

know all the main block explorers and

the wallets you know they filter that

stuff out and so because most people

don't want to see any of that and so

that's why maybe it hasn't been an issue

because all the while you know they just

filter that out it's not like there's

some big service that's publishing those

things that people do but eventually I

think there'll be something that um

can't be denied that will have a stri on

effect well be something pretty big and

everyone's going to look into it find it

and then that's that's when I that

that's to me to answer your question is

what I'm really looking at in terms of

like existential for Bitcoin and I I

could be wrong but that's what I'm

keeping my eye

on and then so what happens out of that

what's the result of that existential

moment so you're saying then at that

point there's a pro potentially a

protocol change or something big that

what then takes away Bitcoin censorship

resistance or yeah I think if you know

hypothetically there's

had a guess it would probably be

functional code that can't be taken down

that's doing something displaying

something so my guess is it's not like

one PDF or something my guess is it have

to be some sort of you know functional

code website something and if and if

they're motivated enough if it's awful

enough my guess is then it will be come

down to mining right because like

Banning wallets doesn't do anything like

kyc doesn't do anything mixers doesn't

do anything so maybe that is when

they'll try to control the mining and

maybe they will come after for every

Miner and say hey you need to keep an

eye out you know for these types of

ordinal

inscriptions and you can't mine anything

that includes this sort of thing even

though hey once it's there it's there

you can't double spend you really can't

double spend once or twice but so that

that's what I think and then so is that

then my doomsday scenario at that point

isn't that isn't it a co-opted network

at that point well that's the question I

mean this this was an early question

right like Andreas Antonopoulos used to

talk about this back in like 2011 or 12

and people would ask them what happens

if you know the government runs the

miners what happens if they buy the

miners what happens if they go after the

major you know mining pools and he said

well they might be able to control the

network but people will just Fork it and

it'll be a new fork and it'll be one

ones that people believe who aren't

going to be compliant with this stuff

and maybe it's the major chain or maybe

it's the minor chain but I think if it

truly comes to that point where truly

the state is really controlling enough

hash power either directly or indirectly

they truly are controlling the network

51% or

70% you can Fork the network and say

well this is our Bitcoin now we're

calling it Bitcoin Freedom or something

and it'll be a hard fork and then maybe

that that's kind of what Andrea said you

know 10 years ago that would be the

scenario I would see how what is the

current temperament in Bitcoin I think

you have a you have your on the pulse of

that better than I do right now I mean I

on Twitter I I see you know I think I

see issues with you know ocean the ocean

minor censoring Samurai that that that

got a lot of uh that got a lot of play

and people talking about the ordinals

and the factions that want to censor

that versus the ones that want to allow

it are we potentially entering kind of

another Bitcoin Civil War error here

like we saw with the block size I don't

think we are I mean that's a good

parallels the BL size Wars but I I don't

think we are and actually I'm very

optimistic about Bitcoin I mean this has

kind of been the best time to be in

Bitcoin since I mean the very early days

um and the reason why I say that is now

there are more wallets that are going to

be doing whirl poool so obviously

Samurai wallet is the original

implementer of it but then you have

Sparrow and on the Twitter space today

they talked about a couple other wallets

that we're going to do it so that's good

we're seeing more of the whirlpool coin

joint implementation

um I think the Maxis the lasery the

priests are being slowly like discarded

I think their Bitcoin only church cult

that they were in I think that's has

seen its its best days and I think those

people are are kind of giving up on that

or or they're just not they're no longer

the dominant voice and I think you know

that whole concept those guys are going

away I think orinal is bringing in a

whole new group of people new money new

developers new use case not just like

dumb art but actually some really cool

things you can do um so I think Bitcoin

is actually in a in a really good place

in terms of protocol and the people

because Bitcoin has been stagnant for so

many years so many years and and even

from the beginning like the core devs a

lot of them to core have really focused

not on privacy at all it's always been

about let's scripting and time locks and

like more of a financial instrument they

really shot themselves in the foot we

can't come back to that but um in terms

of Bitcoin the the I think to answer

your question um it's a it's a change of

the Guard that's what I would say it's a

change of the Guard I think it's a new

era with with more people in it now that

being said the state is coming down

harder in general but Bitcoin itself has

has some of the best people

now yeah yeah yeah yeah that's okay

that's that's so you like you you're

okay with ordinals on bitcoin are you

were you okay with mnal on Monero what

was your what was your take on that uh I

wasn't deep into it enough to to to care

um I know that there was a hot minute it

was there um what was sort of you know

what was the case there that happened

with morals I mean PE people were using

Monero to publish uh ordinals um but

then basically some changes changes were

made right there's the uh the transa TX

extra field of Monero is effectively is

what allowed this to

happen um and there's always been this

idea of deprecating that at some point

so that hasn't been deprecated yet but

without getting to technicalities

basically it's not as easy to use it for

those purposes anymore um but overall

like what was your thinking there with

that was was was like well it is what it

is if people wanted do uh ordinal Zano

let him do ordinal Zano or or would did

you view it a little differently because

of the fact that it potentially affected

fungibility yeah yeah that's a good

question you know to me it was sort of

like I don't want to stop people from

doing things right but there was

definitely a Parton was like uh why

don't we just leave ordinals out of

Monero like let's just let's just not I

I don't want to stop someone from doing

it but like

personally my opinion was I hope this

doesn't really take off like let's just

use let's use Bitcoin let's use Stacks

let's use other things you know and just

the way the Monero Community is I never

thought it would get far simply because

it's not the culture and there's if if

you're like an artist you want to go

where the liquidity is and you're not

going to be publishing a lot of art on

Monera there's just not there's just not

enough users for it to be worth your

while and so that's sort of my take but

it's interesting like hard Forks

um in terms of like censorship

resistance it's interesting how so far

hard Forks seem to have worked well from

Monaro but that's something to keep an

eye on I think is maybe my my concern

there is could there be a hard Fork that

isn't isn't a good thing so far it seems

like it's worked pretty well like

Bitcoin has struggled in a sense because

of its soft forks and there's good

reasons for soft fors

but yeah I think I think I think it's

because Monero has a very

cohesive value proposition right uh that

the the Comm the community by and far

for the most part all agrees what the

purpose of this tool is which is digital

cash transactions whereas in

Bitcoin uh that PE not everybody thinks

not everybody's thinking along those

lines right even even you and are saying

well it's not even digital cash it's

it's property uh so I think that's

fundamentally

the difference between the two in terms

of why perhaps Monero is able to kind of

do these forks with no with no issue uh

do you agree with that or do you you see

things differ yeah I agree I think

you're right that it's sort of the

culture of Monero and I think if you

don't like that you have other options

right like if you think story value you

just go to bitcoin if you want to

publish ordinals because you're an

artist you go to bitcoin so sort of like

self- selecting out like those kind of

people simply just don't get into Monero

because it's not a good place for it and

so they naturally don't go there you

know which is which has been nice I

think it's complimentary you know like

like if any form that's why we're

talking about both and we're going to

talk about like the pros and cons and

where things break down between the two

um you know because they do go well

together but yeah so far it's been

cohesive um which is strange because

when you come from Bitcoin world right

it's like so much just stupid drama and

so many factions and so much like laring

and not just that but like soap opera

stuff and you would think that'd be the

case in Monero like I would think Monero

would be like the most difficult costic

negative you know hostile

ranker

coin but it's kind of not it's it's kind

of surprising because so much is on the

line and it's privacy so you would think

I don't know maybe just way off but I

I'm kind of surprised how it's actually

kind of cohesive and relatively Pleasant

kind of surprising yeah I mean don't get

me wrong we have we have our moments

yeah we blocked each other so we we know

that things happen but overall me out of

guns and Bitcoin Ragnar you kicked me

out yeah but you know compared to

bitcoin with the drama there so it's

kind of it's kind of surprising and like

not to be like

conspiratorial but you know the state

always infiltrates any group that that

they you know disagree with and that's

always like okay who and Monero right

because you know there's the state is in

Monero but they're there I'm sure

obviously but so far it doesn't seem

like they've made a dent doesn't mean

they can't in the future but so far like

doesn't seem like there's any powerful

State actors that are really like rank

rankling things up and really trying to

pull their Reigns in a certain direction

as far as I know right unless it's it's

unless it's so nefarious and diabolical

that it's happening on some some level

we're not aware of yet

um hey which is which is possible um but

so what do you then see Bitcoin as

designing towards so like like we're

saying right there's that cohesion there

in Monero on what the value proposition

is all design decisions are towards that

end of censorship resistant untraceable

Unstoppable digital

cash what are what motivates the design

decisions in Bitcoin and is there even a

shared belief on what motivates the

design decisions in Bitcoin I think

Bitcoin is obviously more there it's

more variety in terms of how people see

it I'll say that I think the lightning

Network now is a lot of people realizing

it's just not gonna it just doesn't

deliver what it was promised to deliver

in terms of payments um I think we're in

a permanent High fee environment now

with Bitcoin so fees are just going to

be high probably permanently which

really can hinder the peer-to-peer cash

because it's more expensive to do so I

think that digital cash is going to

suffer a little bit just because of the

fees I think are going to be high and

lightning actually isn't a solution to

that I think people love nfts they love

art they love ordinals so I think that's

really going to go far in the long term

um like Tapo Wizards raised millions of

dollars they're like kind of the biggest

ordinal collection in terms of money

rais I think um so in terms of Bitcoin

what's its sort of message I think it's

going to be a combination of like um you

know ordinals art and think also as like

an asset there's going to be ETFs will

be approved just a matter of time I know

people have been saying ETFs for 10

years but there will be approved ETFs

and when that hits Bitcoin is going to

be digital gold uh maybe it'll be even

neutered and censored like you alluded

to but so kind of those two those kind

of two or three things I I would say

definitely more are definitely more defi

with layers different layers you're

going to be able to defi type things

smart contract type things um but so

yeah that peer-to-peer cash I think is

going to be it'll always be there

there's so much liquidity but it's it's

you're not going to think Bitcoin and

payments right like that's not what

people are gonna like first thing comes

to their mind yeah yeah yeah and do you

see the the number go up thing as

helping

to propel the the movement away from

from cash utility right feeding into

that because I do I I feel like you know

that's the number go up it's great it's

a great way to bootstrap right it it was

a genius genius thing that that Satoshi

Came Upon here that the system would

would bootstrap Itself by becoming more

valuable over time and with every new

user but it also seems to be it's ailles

heel in terms of now designing towards

number go up instead of Designing

towards censorship resistant you know

digital cash

Network yeah yeah the number go up thing

you know you can make the argument has

has actually hindered Bitcoin as a

peer-to-peer payment system because

people don't want to spend it right I

mean that's the whole thing we've heard

for so many years is why would you spend

your Bitcoin you know why would you

possibly do that because people just

want to make money and that's really you

know it's kind of hindered Bitcoin and I

think yes that will probably continue to

further hinder Bitcoin in terms of like

wanting it to be a payment system simply

because when the ETFs are approved I

think that's really going to increase

the price and once those big

institutions are on board like Bitcoin

has a new floor in terms of the low

price that it will hit because of those

major institutions and at that point all

you know the money the the headlines the

talent is going to be more on that Asset

Management side and it's going to be

sort of the more of the Paradigm for

Bitcoin Bitcoin you can anyone can do

anything with it but you will I think

see even more of a transition emphasis

on the number go up uh once once that

happens and including ordinals like the

cost of the value of ordinals you know

number go up on those as well the

speculation just like we saw in ethereum

with all the nfts it's it's a g to be a

casino um that's what I

see what do you think of the the meme of

uh you know hold hold Bitcoin but spend

Monero

yeah I get it I don't it's not something

I would propagate because I really think

that Bitcoin is is a peer-to-peer

payment system and I think because so

many more companies and individuals

accept that as a payment method that we

need to grow that Bitcoin economy and so

it's I I get that um but I just kind of

don't like it because I think Bitcoin

should be used for payments and I think

we should encourage that but if people

say well you know I think bitcoin's

price will go up more than Monero so I'm

just gonna kind of use that as my

investment and spend Monero that's fine

I guess as long as people are using

Monero

but H you

know I don't I don't like that

dialectric I I don't like that splitting

it into the you know yeah and it's it

also takes away you know from

monero's uh value proposition as being a

scarce digital asset as well right it's

like yeah like why can Bitcoin be

digital gold but Monero can't there like

anybody who understands the economics of

these things there's absolutely no

reason why Monero can't be as digital

gold like if not more because of its

ibility uh and it's arguably perhaps

arguably it's it's more predictable

Supply I I make that argument as well

right we don't know one day one day the

21 million may have to be ra a tail

emission may have to be added to bitcoin

at some point to continue to maintain

the network do you where do you fall on

that I mean we've even hear bitcoiners

talk like Peter Todd has even talked

about perhaps the potential need to add

a tail emission to

bitcoin uh yeah what do you think about

all those things that just threw at you

there yeah no I I really think a tail

emission makes sense for Bitcoin I I

thought I think it should have it I

think that was something I understand

why SOI did why Satoshi didn't do that

but I think it was a mistake looking

back and I think a t mission is

important um why Monero does it and in

terms of like digital gold and Monero

absolutely can be digital gold like it

is right bitcoiners will say Well it has

infinite Supply right because it never

stops being produced there's always that

tail Mission but that's stupid um it's

tiny um but yeah and the other thing

about people who want to say oh only use

Monero to spend it's like no let's say

you're sort of a paranoid person and you

think okay we're gonna have more control

more surveillance more of a Crackdown

well don't you want to be hoarding

Monero I

mean you want to hoard Monero like you

want to spend it but you really want to

hoard Monero I I

think right it's like only use a gun if

you need it but you need to have to use

it yeah that's what I was that's

actually how I think about it it's funny

you say that because I was thinking in

my mind it's like it's like a gun and

it's like ammo yeah if if you truly

think you need it you want more ammo and

you want more guns because you don't

want to say oh only you know only like

use bullets that are inexpensive and

only shoot those it's like no you got to

practice with it like to get good at it

like you don't want to be too late on it

so that's why I don't like the dichotomy

of like spend this but save that it's

like you want to do both be good at both

have as much as both as

possible all right yeah I I like that

what's the deal G give me some insight

into into samurai because I haven't

spoken to those guys in a while as

well why aren't they all in on Monero

like I I I that that's the you know kind

of a gripe I've had had with them I

don't because they get they understand

this better than anybody right they

understand the need for censorship

resistant digital cach that's why

they're working tirelessly on trying to

create things that allow you to use

Bitcoin in that way uh unfortunately

it's it's not easy to do in Bitcoin but

here you here you have on the other hand

you have something Monero that works

beautifully for that purpose uh I

respect the fact that they're building

all these things but why don't they like

accept Monero or maybe they do is there

a plan to accept Monero natively on

their app I've heard them talk about in

terms of atomic swaps and the same idea

of you know ultimately Monero is is

worthless against Bitcoin but you can

use it if you want to um wash

essentially as a mixer right you could

essentially use it as a mixer for

Bitcoin but they never take the next

step of saying on its own it's a good

technology and it works as digital cash

and we're you know we're promoting it

we're using it we're building things for

that just give me the insights there on

on Samurai yeah well you know obviously

I can't I can't speak for for Samurai uh

they're they're a team but I what I can

say is they do like Monero a lot uh they

fully appreciate they like it they're

friendly to it I thought they were

working on the swaps I don't know what

the status of that is yeah um so they

they've come out and said that um I

can't speak for them but I think they

they just have so much on their plate

right like they're so busy with WHL

poool and I just saw the other day like

they I think reached like an all-time

high again of world pool so I think

they're just so busy with what they are

doing that they just like well I don't

even know maybe they want to but they

don't have the bandwidth I don't know

but I know they're just so busy as as it

is and yeah that's the case then yeah I

can't fault them for that if it's just a

bandwidth issue and it's like we would

do it but we you know we don't have the

time or is it more of like a

philosophical where

bitcoiners no no they yeah not that way

yeah they're like privacy first and then

they're definitely like like me in terms

of like it's just a tool right like

Bitcoin mono just tools they're not like

the point of it they're just a tool and

they were privacy guys before Bitcoin

and they'll be after it goes away if it

ever does so no they they like Monero I

think they're just have their hands full

with Bitcoin and I think it's good

because it's kind of amazing in a bad

way just how little emphasis privacy has

had in Bitcoin you think of all the

talent all the money all the VCS all the

podcasts all the conferences all the

stuff and like Samurai has kind of been

really the only ones who have had like

usable

practical privacy

things like it's kind of amazing for how

much money is in Bitcoin they're kind of

the only ones like there's some other

stuff but it's like not

good it's it's it's just a blows my mind

and I can't wrap my head around why

there's

not more competitors to samurai or why

people just just haven't so maybe that's

also they're in a good position in that

sense right right they're the they're

the specialist for that for that purpose

very true very true yeah I think I think

the atomic swaps that they're adding uh

is really for purposes of getting rid of

the toxic change I think is like how how

you're currently thinking about it so

like yeah get again like so why why not

just like add Atomic swaps to Samurai

and you could hold your Bitcoin there

you could hold your Monero there that

will they will they be a fin Fest

because if they are then then I'll be

able to to ask him that question I'm

sure yeah there there's a couple of guys

from Samurai that'll be at finny Forum

uh AR Go a speaker sorry

turn that's the after party that's the

after party yeah no I like that that's a

good good one U yeah but um Aro will be

there a go he's on their oxt block

Explorer uh software that they have um

so he'll be a speaker BTC zel will be a

speaker although he doesn't work for

Samurai while he you know they have the

node Ron and Dojo node which does world

poool and it's a Bitcoin note so he'll

be there and maybe some of the actual

Samari guys will be there as well we're

still trying to figure out their

schedule and stuff like that so

definitely uh there'll be guys for you

to speak with uh from the samurai World

definitely there so definitely uh you

know raise some eyebrows and start a

conversation I won't be that annoying I

promise I

promise um I'm just I'm so inquisitive

when it when it comes to understand like

some people I you know I try to

understand their their their true

motivations in crypto like like Andreas

soplos you brought up right like I never

understood why that guy never spoke

about Monero more right like he seemed

to that's what he's he's what brought me

into Bitcoin right he's he's really what

gave me the initial deep understanding

of the value prop of what crypto is

supposed to be and yet you never really

hear him talking about Monero and all

the all the good things it's doing

towards towards that end of being

digital cash right yeah I don't know I

mean where where is he I haven't heard

from Andreas in years true generally

haven't heard much from him lately maybe

he's just retired I mean he certainly

has enough

well actually remember uh right at some

point he he revealed that he didn't have

any Bitcoin and then people donated to

him that that was that was incredible

yeah well there was that one thing with

uh what I think it was a Roger ve thing

it was something where like he got this

big donation or one a bet or something

but I I thought there was something with

Roger ve and then um Andreas like kept

it and it was like a big big payday um

but I know beond the scenes Andre has

been like um an advisor to lots of

companies behind the scenes so you know

maybe maybe stuff there but yeah it's

kind of disappointing he was he was very

um inspirational although he started to

I think upset some people because he's

on the left side of

politics um and I I would say probably

more people in Bitcoin are on the right

side there's people on both sides but I

think some of his left is views um

people didn't like so maybe that or

maybe he's retired you know I don't know

but for fortunately you know the world

has grown since Andreas and those those

small groups so there's plenty of good

people

now in general though like people of

that of that nature right that are are

in Bitcoin for its censorship resistant

purposes any thinking there as to why

more of them aren't talking about Monero

is it just as simple as they're invested

in Bitcoin number go up they got their

bags or yeah that's probably that I I

think especially if they've been in it

for a while I just think if kind of most

of their you know their wealth or

whatever that word means to people is in

Bitcoin they're kind of set that way and

so you know people only have so much

energy and attention span to do more

than one thing um but there also is the

social stigma you know it's stupid but

there's lots of bitcoiners who love

Monero you know public people like I can

think of one person who is a Bitcoin

whale who is very well known in Bitcoin

very private Centric but doesn't talk

about Monero but he loves Monero like he

is Aid fan I'm sure he's

contributed probably lots of code I'm

sure he's made some big donations in

Monero I'm pretty darn sure of that but

just doesn't talk about it because the

stupid culture and he's kind

of you know he just decides that his

he's better he time better spent talking

about Bitcoin rather than having to

fight some other battle publicly about

Monero and he can just contribute to

nrow uh without saying much so I guess

you just have to pick your battles

that's the only thing I can think

of do you see that changing I mean

obviously right even I feel like you

represent that that realm right so

you're you're in a group your tent is is

the bitcoiners the Privacy the privacy

bitcoiners and now they're they're

getting into Monero do you see that tent

growing I see it yeah I see it's

becoming more acceptable to talk about

Monero I think this is probably a good

thing in Bitcoin we're starting to see

as new people come in because of

ordinals I think you're having a more

diverse crowd I think as a number go up

people sort of uh they've been uh shown

to be wrong about so many things so I do

think it will be more socially

acceptable for these you know Bitcoin

privacy people to get into Monero um

yeah I think I think that's going to be

more

acceptable but not to be too negative

but a lot of there's you know some big

Bitcoin privacy people who actually

turns out really don't care about

privacy as much as they thought they did

or say they do and you've seen that with

Samurai now Samurai likes they're funny

guys they like to make people upset like

they they're thick skin and they they

have no problem right mixing it up with

people um that's why I like them but uh

you've seen a lot of people fight

Samurai and you're like what is this and

these are like quote unquote the Privacy

guys Bitcoin is censorship resistant

like a lot of them and they hate Samurai

and they and some of that is because

they invested in wasabi which is

supposedly another you know coin drin

implementation that's broken it's

terrible but I think a lot of people

simply

invested in in that um and so to answer

your

questioni vers Samurai thing right right

so go ahead go ahead though to answer my

question yeah yeah so to answer your

question yes I think it's becoming more

acceptable for for you know bitcoiners

to get into to Monero and talk about it

um that's one thing but then there's

also just the fact that uh people who

said they were about privacy ultimately

aren't they're more about their

investment in different in alternatives

to Samurai and they're more invested in

kind of their their you know their image

um yeah people people are just people at

the end of the day right yeah yeah we

all fall short of our own expectations I

mean we're all human

right all this all this coming down the

line for sure he's playing into all this

all all this greed all this greed that

everybody

has yeah you know it's it's it's uh you

know is Bitcoin you know has it has it

suffered from its own success I would

say yes um you know it's hard to care

about you at a certain point I think a

lot of you know Bitcoin Wells at a

certain point it's kind of like they

sort of it's hard for them to have

privacy because you get to a certain

point it becomes hard in a sense um

unless you've been very careful with

things along the way I think it just

becomes very hard and and you don't want

to make yourself a Target and so they're

just kind of like H I'm not getting

engage in

this and like we said before the the

number go up thing it's like people

people essentially sell out right it's

like they they cared about privacy but

when they see their dollar value keep

going up in Bitcoin terms they don't

longer really care about it as much

right because they're like well I'm

getting my freedom through my wealth uh

I don't need it to be private uh which I

think is short-term thinking right it's

it's not adversarial thinking either

because ultimately the real value comes

from people not being able to to take

your wealth right yeah I I agree I think

you know when you get comfortable like

anything like if you're comfortable you

become less of a of a warrior less of an

advocate less of a fighter because you

have a good life and you just you don't

want to risk your good Pleasant life and

so why get into this big fight and and

put yourself out there because your life

is so great and you have your boat and

your house and you know all the stuff

that you have that could be it too I

don't know

yeah

um what some who was it that somebody

posted some good questions oh was on

untraceable right posted some good

questions you had asked I think we

actually kind of covered most of them uh

what is bitcoin's value uh about you

know the issues with the censorship

resistance we definitely covered that um

I he's asking yeah what do you think

what would you say is is your greatest

criticism or criticisms of

banero I think it's you know lack of

Greater

adoption I I think is it is its weakness

I mean ultimately you got to have

adoption as a as a method of payment um

that that's the Practical thing I think

of Monero is is is that okay it's

liquidity essentially yeah yeah it's

liquidity it's getting better right um

with you know BTC pay server and it's

becoming easier to do that but um yeah

that that's what I would like to see and

this is where you know bitcoiners you

know they don't like it like finny form

like I've talked to a couple different

like Bitcoin like meetup groups and just

kind of just call it Bitcoin social

groups I would say say Hey you know like

do you want to be a sponsor do you want

to be a partner you know speak or this

or that and a lot of them say no because

we have Monero there you go right you

know we talk about Monero same thing

with bars and Bitcoin we have Monero and

so it just shows like the damage they

can do because they don't want Monero to

be a method of payment right like they

don't like that we accept Monero for our

ticket

sales um and so to answer the question I

think lack of Greater you know adoption

is it

biggest weak point right now there's

nothing wrong with Monera itself the

protocol right it's just the state of

things yeah yeah yeah for sure which

ties into untraceable other question

which is what do you think of Monero

being this idea of Monero being delisted

from centralized exchanges is that a

good thing or a bad

thing uh that's a great question I

generally think that it is a bad thing

in the sense that most people use

Central services at least for any large

amounts you know it's easier to get

smaller amounts without having to do the

centralized services but for larger

amounts it's it's harder and so I think

in the short term it it keeps Monero out

of the hands of more users plain and

simple just the convenience the

counterargument to that though is that

it keeps the ethos of

Monero uh with people who want to use it

and it doesn't like get distracted

people don't get in Monero for the wrong

reasons um so I think it's kind of a

mixed bag there I would prefer that it

doesn't get delisted I know people say

that's a strien effect but you know I'm

I'm not so not so sure about that

um yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean it it

could definitely hurt liquidity

initially right I mean I guess I guess

the yeah the positive arguments are that

you're you're using crypto the way you

should be using it right uh there's

definitely no kyc AML if you're if you

can't go onto a centralized exchange to

get it uh so then you know you're you're

obtaining it in the best way possible

and then just using it not necessarily

um you know just using it as an

investment so but but maybe you know

more people are

mining you know if they if they're like

well it's harder to get centralized

exchange and they're like I'll mine it

just that's one more you know way to get

it um yeah it'll be interesting to see

how how it plays out uh

because I just the state is gonna come

after Monero eventually I mean there's a

reason why they haven't been more

aggressive and I think I think it's GNA

come then we'll really see was delisting

it uh good good or bad like did it

prepare the community for something like

did it Stave that off and so we're

already prepared for it right right

right and like we said there's these

other Bridges being built Unstoppable

like Atomic

swaps uh decentralized

exchanges uh is Sarai gonna be

presenting at um fin Forum uh he's

trying

to yeah Luke Parker yeah thanks for

bringing Luke up yeah really glad that

Luke's gonna be a speaker um I'm I don't

think he's decided if he's going to talk

about it yet I'm kind of leaving that up

to him based on on how far along it is

he's got a lot to talk about he could

also talk about full membership

proofs right he's he's working on that

as well yeah that that's why Luke Luke

asked me what should I talk on I'm like

whatever you

want yeah exactly you're the boss man

you tell us yeah you if you're gonna fly

out

to if you're gonna fly out to Dallas

like the mic's yours just keep it at 20

minutes so he's a Phenom that kid he's

he's amazing yeah big big brain um but

yeah like deick Apollo he's going to be

a speaker you know he's helped I think

with with BTC pay server

and yeah so he's gonna be on there and

uh just scrolling through another one

like if Jenny Poes can he's behind uh

you know the the Privacy messaging app

um and then we're trying to get some

more Monero people out there so

hopefully this podcast will track more

of the Monero tribe you have a big

following so hopefully more more of the

Monero crazy people will come and get a

few more of those speakers on board I

think I think you'll see that happen for

sure for sure we got to get you to in

return to come to monot toia man we uh

we need you to return the favor and yeah

so when is the next one I know the last

one was in Mexico what's the what's the

plan you guys have a date I haven't been

keeping up to date on things we are

thinking yeah because we haven't

officially announced anything yet we're

thinking of doing it in buar Argentina a

year from now

essentially um and then that separates

us from monocon because they do theirs

in June we've been doing ours in like

May which is right next to theirs so

kind of moves us six months away from

Monero con um and then it'll be

somewhere down in Buenos syus during

that time which should be nice and then

we have Malay over there which I'm sure

you're aware of and there's there's a

lot of energy there right now there's a

lot of natural organic Monero adoption

that's taking place I think I had

reached out to you right to try to get a

uh a a alesandro perhaps is being a

speaker at fin form the young kid who

start who's starting Monero town and

iberet in Argentina uh so yeah we're

thinking of doing Monero Topia down

there in in a year which would be cool

that would be very interesting

especially with yeah the new the new

president there see where where things

will go yeah that'll be

interesting it's a far flight though

that's the thing right it's pretty far

people don't understand I feel like a

lot of people just want to like who

haven't been down there or or just just

need that final like little push to go

because they want to go they want to

check it out so maybe this will will be

their excuse to go check it out Bon have

you ever been to bonasus no I've I've

gone to Chile many times uh but never

make it made it over Argentina I've had

a few Argentine friends but just didn't

make it there yeah want to yeah the food

is amazing the the the steak the wine

yeah just the uh the culture it's good

good people

and just and and the cash culture is

amazing there I mean it is obviously

things things are going to be changing

now but the the current the current

because of the the the Fiat being so

dismal down there that people have

basically live in a black market economy

so it's it's kind of exciting to see

because you're you're witnessing uh a

true black market economy you know and

yeah actually that that that might

actually see that go away ironically

even though Malay is Extreme libertarian

but in his efforts to fix things it may

become less necessary to have have the

black market down there yeah it'll be

interesting to see um because it's you

know he's the new president but then

you're always going against the

bureaucrats and the banks and so you

know we'll see El Salvador I mean he's

he was the president there I mean he's

been very influential was able to do a

lot so maybe he will I mean Argentina

seems like it's right for this kind of

thing so hopefully I mean like you said

it's a big cash economy seems like a

natural fit for Monero um yeah it'd be a

great excuse to go down there I mean the

climate as well I mean there's so many

good things it's just the flight I think

if it was closer a lot more a lot more

people who would normally go to Europe

would go to Argentina instead like I

would rather kind of go rather go to

Argentina I've been to Europe plenty of

times so we'll see yeah it's far New

York is like 11 hours I don't know where

you're coming from well you're Texas

right yeah Texas right now

okay

cool all right man is there any other

information you want to put out there

with regards I guess let's set first say

crypto in general any any any info you

want to get out there no I mean I think

this has been good I appreciate you guys

you know being a partner at fin forum

and um so finy for.com uh just throw out

the date again so March 15th and 16th in

Dallas so that'll be a good conversation

there to talk about everything uh meet

meet other folks there that I know only

via you know Twitter um but yeah I I I

appreciate uh having me on and you know

spreading the word and um yeah I think

overall I think my message would be that

things are moving in the right direction

in Monero the right direction in Bitcoin

I think we're coming to a very

interesting time where the state is

really cracking down now and we're going

to have these populist revolts and

Argent Tina and some other places and I

think the world is going to get really

crazy next year with with the

presidential election in the US so

buckle up I think and be

prepared hold those Monero hold hle

Monero stack Monero you might want to go

boating too right you might you might

want to take up the the hobby of boating

as well uh what would you say to to

somebody who

is in crypto maybe they're maybe they're

like a a bitcoiner getting interested in

Monero but they are concerned about the

fact that it might be banned or they're

concerned that it is a

target what what would be your message

to the to those people I would say if

you're afraid of that that's a reason to

use

Monero and I would say as of

today it's not illegal to own Monero or

use it so like don't be a baby

like I love it so true right like if if

you're here and you're here for the

right reasons then you should wantan to

want to use Monero at that point right

otherwise you're probably here for the

wrong reasons right yeah it's like come

on come on like think of our ancestors

and what they they've done like talk

about weak generation so yeah so people

are afraid of Monero don't be that's

ridiculous it's legal and if you think

it's going to be banned that's more of a

reason to have it cuz why would they if

it was such a powerful tool right when

like the government says ban this

sometimes there's a good reason for it

but sometimes it's not so know Monero is

a friendly place it's not that hard to

get it's easy to use great wallets you

can mine at home like go for it don't

overthink it all right Ragnar man thank

you so much this is fantastic yeah

dougas I'm glad we got to do this and uh

we'll see you in March if we don't also

see each other on Twitter before then

cheers buddy and

thanks thank you for joining us on this

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week